Saw End Game; Hated Some (but Liked Some)
May. 1st, 2019 10:51 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lydamorehouseThings I can say above the cut: it's worth seeing, IMHO, for one singular cinematic moment. In the theater, when we saw it, people almost jumped out of their seats, but literally all yelled, "YES!"
So, they gave us something good.
Now, about the rest:
Old Man!Captain America. There are several things wrong with this ending for Steve Rogers, Captain America. Before I get into them, I will say, that I fully support Steve taking a detour to go see Peggy and getting his dance. I also 150% support Sam Wilson, Captain America. There have been many Captain Americas, and Sam Wilson is one. I only wish that after Steve asked Sam to try to shield on for size, he'd looked at him, nodded, and said, "Looks like America to me." (They were willing to make America's ass jokes, but chose not give black/African Americans a moment of "yes, you are America"? F*ck that.)
However, with the "stayed behind" Steve, what Disney/Hollywood is asking us to accept is that Steve Rogers stopped hero-ing.
If he did that, he betrayed everything we know to be true (and admirable) about Captain America. He would also have had to live a life KNOWING that Bucky was being tortured by the Russians and said, "Eh, but I have this nice wife and a house in the suburbs, so, whatevs." This. is, NOT. Captain America. More importantly, we have to believe that Captain America NEVER AGAIN answered the call of duty, which... who even is that, in that universe? Not someone I like very much, that's who.
So, how do we fix this? Or is this just sour note that we have to accept like the fridge-ing of Black Widow.
Thing is, in the comic books (which are not the MCU, I will grant you that,) that's not how the super-soldier formula works, anyway. The super-soldier formula slows Steve's aging process. The REAL Captain America (aka the one based on the comic books) would look.. 50 tops? Try to remember that in the comic book universe, Steve WAS unfrozen in the 1960s, so what you see on the cover of the current issues is exactly how much he'd age, which is to say, virtually NOT AT ALL.
So, I have a growing head canon that if Steve stayed behind, which we seem to have to accept, he's actually in disguise as an old man, thinking that THAT is the only way someone else will accept the role of Captain America. I also would like to note that he very distinctly says, when asked, "do you want to tell me about her?" when Sam sees the ring, Steve says, "No." My head canon there? It didn't last. Peggy wanted to superhero just as much as Steve did, so they parted ways and he went undercover and she went back to spying. They crossed paths occasionally, but a settled life was not for them.
Otherwise, I feel like Hollywood/Disney is also forcing me to accept a Peggy Carter that settled down, and you can f*ck right off, Marvel.
Speaking of f*cking right off....
What they did to Black Widow. Unforgivable. Full Stop. I will say that I appreciate that the love that was sacrificed was non-romantic, but the fact that a single woman gave her life so a married man could have his family back was pure and utter bullshit. Kick him off the cliff, Natasha. Dude only has arrows, you're sixteen times stronger than him, anyway. Clearly, because you won the battle of strength on the dying hill. Also, since time is so f*cked up anyway, why couldn't they return the stone to the point before she dies? I mean, alternate timelines anyway, right? Gamora gets to be alive in the now, why not bring back an earlier Black Widow?
Tony Stark's death. Okay, a good martyr moment, we know he has that tendency, the diva, but it was wholly unnecessary and they had to leave a giant plot hole in order to make it work. The technology that Tony created is the reason he could have the stones appear on his Iron Man glove all nano-tech. He built the new Infinity Gauntlet, not Thanos. So my issue? Tony can create A WORKING TIME MACHINE based on a half-baked idea from Ant-Man, but doesn't think to put in a way to mitigate the power of the stones? Out. Of. Character.
Maybe it's just not possible. I would buy that to some extent. We know these stones are crazy-powerful... but....
Wakanda is on-site. They lost this exact same war once and you're telling me that Shiri, arguable MORE intelligent than Tony Stark, didn't say to Black Panther, "You know what we need, my brother, technologically advanced gurneys ready to transport our wounded back to Wakanda and an army of surgeons standing by." They LOST SO MANY the last time, even before the fingers snapped. It seems odd that they wouldn't be ready wfor medical evacuations. They are the most advanced country in the world. They would at least have a stasis field ready to throw over Tony to take him back and save him. Then he can retire like any Marvel hero. Trust me, retirement is 100% accurate to the comic books.
The whole "girl power" moment? Staged and stupid and I felt cheated of real moments for the women of Marvel.
Thor as the butt of the joke? I could have done without it, but I did like the scene with his mother. I liked it, because Mjölnir returned to him when he was feeling the most worthless. It would not have done that if Thor was not worthy of Mjölnir. For people everywhere who are suffering panic attacks and PTSD: YOU. ARE. WORTHY.
Speaking of.... The scene I reference above is the Captain America picks up Thor's hammer. I've heard people say, "Why couldn't he before, in the bar?" Buy a clue, True Believers. Maybe Mjölnir didn't think being a party game was a worthy event? SEEMS LIKELY. Because, what other people might not have twigged to is that Mjölnir did not just allow itself to be lifted, but it granted the FULL power of Thor to Captain America. That lightning strike? ONLY THOR CAN DO THAT. At that moment, Captain America had the power of Thor because Mjölnir found the moment and the person WORTHY.
I liked the time travel. I drove home in a car full of science fiction authors and we all agreed that the time lines make NO SENSE. Mason even pointed out that they violated their own rules, at least as explained by the Ancient One. But, the solution was very comic book-y and that made me profoundly happy, plus I loved that it gave us a literal chance to revisit old movie scenes and talk to the dead and gone. I also loved how Nebula accidentally betrayed them because of her cyborg networking functions. Despite what people say, I felt like Nebula got a decent role in this film. She's a villain, but her growth throughout the series was shown by the fact that Gamorra believed Now!Nebula.
Also seeing Gamorra kick Peter Quill in the gonads was almost damn near worth the price of admission, too.
Oh, and people who seem to think Loki is perma-dead DID NOT WATCH THE SAME FILM I DID. It seems very, very clear to me that Loki is happily in possession of the Cosmic Cube (MCU = Tesseract) and is living his best life.
So, there are things I liked quite a bit. I'm going to die mad about others.
So, they gave us something good.
Now, about the rest:
Old Man!Captain America. There are several things wrong with this ending for Steve Rogers, Captain America. Before I get into them, I will say, that I fully support Steve taking a detour to go see Peggy and getting his dance. I also 150% support Sam Wilson, Captain America. There have been many Captain Americas, and Sam Wilson is one. I only wish that after Steve asked Sam to try to shield on for size, he'd looked at him, nodded, and said, "Looks like America to me." (They were willing to make America's ass jokes, but chose not give black/African Americans a moment of "yes, you are America"? F*ck that.)
However, with the "stayed behind" Steve, what Disney/Hollywood is asking us to accept is that Steve Rogers stopped hero-ing.
If he did that, he betrayed everything we know to be true (and admirable) about Captain America. He would also have had to live a life KNOWING that Bucky was being tortured by the Russians and said, "Eh, but I have this nice wife and a house in the suburbs, so, whatevs." This. is, NOT. Captain America. More importantly, we have to believe that Captain America NEVER AGAIN answered the call of duty, which... who even is that, in that universe? Not someone I like very much, that's who.
So, how do we fix this? Or is this just sour note that we have to accept like the fridge-ing of Black Widow.
Thing is, in the comic books (which are not the MCU, I will grant you that,) that's not how the super-soldier formula works, anyway. The super-soldier formula slows Steve's aging process. The REAL Captain America (aka the one based on the comic books) would look.. 50 tops? Try to remember that in the comic book universe, Steve WAS unfrozen in the 1960s, so what you see on the cover of the current issues is exactly how much he'd age, which is to say, virtually NOT AT ALL.
So, I have a growing head canon that if Steve stayed behind, which we seem to have to accept, he's actually in disguise as an old man, thinking that THAT is the only way someone else will accept the role of Captain America. I also would like to note that he very distinctly says, when asked, "do you want to tell me about her?" when Sam sees the ring, Steve says, "No." My head canon there? It didn't last. Peggy wanted to superhero just as much as Steve did, so they parted ways and he went undercover and she went back to spying. They crossed paths occasionally, but a settled life was not for them.
Otherwise, I feel like Hollywood/Disney is also forcing me to accept a Peggy Carter that settled down, and you can f*ck right off, Marvel.
Speaking of f*cking right off....
What they did to Black Widow. Unforgivable. Full Stop. I will say that I appreciate that the love that was sacrificed was non-romantic, but the fact that a single woman gave her life so a married man could have his family back was pure and utter bullshit. Kick him off the cliff, Natasha. Dude only has arrows, you're sixteen times stronger than him, anyway. Clearly, because you won the battle of strength on the dying hill. Also, since time is so f*cked up anyway, why couldn't they return the stone to the point before she dies? I mean, alternate timelines anyway, right? Gamora gets to be alive in the now, why not bring back an earlier Black Widow?
Tony Stark's death. Okay, a good martyr moment, we know he has that tendency, the diva, but it was wholly unnecessary and they had to leave a giant plot hole in order to make it work. The technology that Tony created is the reason he could have the stones appear on his Iron Man glove all nano-tech. He built the new Infinity Gauntlet, not Thanos. So my issue? Tony can create A WORKING TIME MACHINE based on a half-baked idea from Ant-Man, but doesn't think to put in a way to mitigate the power of the stones? Out. Of. Character.
Maybe it's just not possible. I would buy that to some extent. We know these stones are crazy-powerful... but....
Wakanda is on-site. They lost this exact same war once and you're telling me that Shiri, arguable MORE intelligent than Tony Stark, didn't say to Black Panther, "You know what we need, my brother, technologically advanced gurneys ready to transport our wounded back to Wakanda and an army of surgeons standing by." They LOST SO MANY the last time, even before the fingers snapped. It seems odd that they wouldn't be ready wfor medical evacuations. They are the most advanced country in the world. They would at least have a stasis field ready to throw over Tony to take him back and save him. Then he can retire like any Marvel hero. Trust me, retirement is 100% accurate to the comic books.
The whole "girl power" moment? Staged and stupid and I felt cheated of real moments for the women of Marvel.
Thor as the butt of the joke? I could have done without it, but I did like the scene with his mother. I liked it, because Mjölnir returned to him when he was feeling the most worthless. It would not have done that if Thor was not worthy of Mjölnir. For people everywhere who are suffering panic attacks and PTSD: YOU. ARE. WORTHY.
Speaking of.... The scene I reference above is the Captain America picks up Thor's hammer. I've heard people say, "Why couldn't he before, in the bar?" Buy a clue, True Believers. Maybe Mjölnir didn't think being a party game was a worthy event? SEEMS LIKELY. Because, what other people might not have twigged to is that Mjölnir did not just allow itself to be lifted, but it granted the FULL power of Thor to Captain America. That lightning strike? ONLY THOR CAN DO THAT. At that moment, Captain America had the power of Thor because Mjölnir found the moment and the person WORTHY.
I liked the time travel. I drove home in a car full of science fiction authors and we all agreed that the time lines make NO SENSE. Mason even pointed out that they violated their own rules, at least as explained by the Ancient One. But, the solution was very comic book-y and that made me profoundly happy, plus I loved that it gave us a literal chance to revisit old movie scenes and talk to the dead and gone. I also loved how Nebula accidentally betrayed them because of her cyborg networking functions. Despite what people say, I felt like Nebula got a decent role in this film. She's a villain, but her growth throughout the series was shown by the fact that Gamorra believed Now!Nebula.
Also seeing Gamorra kick Peter Quill in the gonads was almost damn near worth the price of admission, too.
Oh, and people who seem to think Loki is perma-dead DID NOT WATCH THE SAME FILM I DID. It seems very, very clear to me that Loki is happily in possession of the Cosmic Cube (MCU = Tesseract) and is living his best life.
So, there are things I liked quite a bit. I'm going to die mad about others.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-01 05:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-05-02 12:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-05-01 05:22 pm (UTC)Spoilers obviously.
That last scene showing him dancing with Peggy in that house had her looking younger than 1970. She was married to someone else by 1970. He knew she went on to be happily married. So Steve went back further in time to get that last dance and then, what? Hid in their house? I just. can't. even. (I like Peggy! I like Steve! But she went on after him and did great things and had a life and to just have Steve insert himself like this is ugh.)
I appreciated how it looked like Bucky had some idea Steve probably wasn't going to just pop back in 5 seconds because Bucky knows Steve. Steve would try to do more and/or things would go awry or something. Also Bucky's used to things getting f-cked up in general and not going as planned.
There are already a ton of fix-it fics out there and in progress, understandably so.
Also does Steve see Red Skull when dropping off the soul stone? Could he swap it for Nat? (Shouldn't everybody do more for Nat? FFS. Argh.)
You covered most of the things I'd complain about, though I keep thinking of more.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-02 12:56 am (UTC)And, yeah, I was afraid that Steve might have had that dance earlier, and I agree that makes it EXTRA wrong for him to have stayed. Plus, no offense to all the shippers, but Peggy and Steve BARELY knew each other when they made that promise of a dance. That was going to be a FIRST date. I really hate the idea of Peggy not getting to do all the Agent Carter things, too, so yes, let's all find a good reworking of that, please.
The other thing Naomi and I talked about a lot today that we think needs fics is the whole weirdness of the 5 year time skip (which they kept on Tony's insistence.) That means that Spider-Man is returning to a high school where half of his friends are already graduated and starting college/life after high school. HOW WEIRD IS THAT???
I hope they deal with that in Far From Home, the next Spider-Man movie, but I'm not holding my breath. I might trust them to, if Stan Lee were still alive, but Hollywood was always a tough sell on the idea of a "continuing cinematic universe" so I suspect they will drop that convention like a hot potato.
Grrr.
Anyway, yes!
no subject
Date: 2019-05-02 02:18 am (UTC)I feel the same way about Steve and Peggy. They like each other! They could've had a date and it might've gone somewhere or it might not have. I get that they'd both wonder "what if" and all. I also can totally see how because of how Steve died and the newsreels and that photo in the compass, a Big Deal was made about their potential romance by others. Tragic romance, sure, okay. But I always felt that people who actually knew them (or were them) would roll their eyes a bit at all of that. Since they hadn't actually had the romance yet.
Yeah, we were also wondering about how things would stand at Peter's school and other schools. I really hope it's at least mentioned in Far From Home, but based on the trailers it seems unlikely (but then trailers can be misleading).
Kevin & I were talking about how if they specifically just restored people who died in the snap, that didn't include the many other people who died because others died.
The passengers of planes where the pilots disappeared would still be dead. As would the many people who were killed in the many car crashes that resulted from people disappearing. I mean, a lot of deaths surely came after and not directly because of the actual snap. And then I thought about suicides and other deaths post snap and got increasingly annoyed by how they did it. I mean, Clint gets to keep those five years of grief & rage & killing, I guess. I know it's a complicated situation, but they have access to time travel and to all the Infinity Stones, they could do a lot to repair things.
Bruce Banner is pretty smart, maybe he restored everyone who died the day of the snap or something. Maybe?
I'm really interested in those five years and just what happened. We know odd little things about how things stood five years on like that the Mets weren't playing. Did major league baseball cease operations because a bunch of players and other employees disappeared? (Kevin joked that the Yankees still existed but not the Mets. Maybe only half the teams remain.)
When they had Steve be old I thought for a second there had been a time machine screw up. I mean, we had Scott Lang at various ages. (Hmm, can they throw Steve in a machine and make him younger? I don't even know. I do not get why he's so old as that's not how the serum works. Argh. Maybe they thought the audience absolutely wouldn't grok what he did if he didn't look old? Ugh.) (I should not try to make sense of this, it does not make sense.)
no subject
Date: 2019-05-02 03:14 am (UTC)I hadn't even had time to process the idea that people died because of people's disappearance. Also, how many people do you think thought it was the rapture? I mean, dusting seems different than the expected mode, but the results seem the same?
Naomi and I did spend a lot of time today talking about all the people whose lives have been weirdly messed up by the Avengers deciding to keep that intervening year for ONE of their member's happiness. Like, all the people who thought their loved one was gone for good an remarried? All the people who had abusive spouses they were free of? All the people who did any number of other "moving on" things...? And, as you point out, potential suicides, etc. And then people walk back one day... and your phone starts ringing. WTF. How crazy is all that??
I also thought the initial appearance of Old Man Rogers had been a time machine screw up because of the time wasted/spent on that joke.
I also found the timing of no one noticed the old guy on the bench until JUST two seconds after Steve was supposed to have made his reappearance? Seems weird for superheroes on high alert. So, yeah, there was something clunky and weird about that scene in general. (Also, did Bucky and Steve ever exchange anything more than a hug? I think they barely spoke to each other.)
Ugh, so much to consider.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-01 06:41 pm (UTC)Which scene was this? The reply to "I am inevitable?"
no subject
Date: 2019-05-02 12:58 am (UTC)The thing that got the "YES!" from the audience was when we see Thor's hammer abandoned in the field and a battered hand reaches for it. We get the long pan up... to Captain America. People almost left their seats the cheer was so spontaneous. Many, many of us knew that Steve Rogers can weld Mjölnir. It's comic book canon, but seeing it? WORTH EVERYTHING.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-02 02:58 am (UTC)And Tony Stark answers I am Iron Man.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-02 03:06 am (UTC)