Movies and Comics

[lydamorehouse]

I've been hearing a lot of hoopla about the new Batman movie and "spoilers."  What confuses me is that I would have thought most people know what happens to Batman when he meets Bane.  It was a pretty big deal when the comicbook came out, and considering that I, a Marvel fan, even have a clue makes me think that, in fandom at least, nothing that happens at the end of the movie should be a surprise.  Especially given the cover art of that particular issue.  It's memorable.  It kind of sticks in my brain, even after all this time.  In fact, knowing what I do is why I actually have no plans to see this movie. 

I guess I've always been confused about the lack of cross-pollinization in these two fandoms.  Marvel's latest movies have only made me convinced that EVERYONE reads the comics, because the directors so clearly give us long-time comicbook fans so many GIFTS.  Also, the movies are full of "dog-whistles" for comicbook fans--just setting the Thor movie in the southwest made me understand WHICH Thor I could be expecting.  And, then as a bonus, we got a little nod to the older Thor with the "Dr. Donald Blake" referrence.

Genuis.

Or not, I guess, if you don't get it.

Because, what, only two days ago, people on the Internets got the screaming heebie-jeebies at the announcement at ComicCon of the mere TITLE of the next Captain America movie, which is simply, "Winter Soldier."  Now, if they're not reading, what are they getting excited about?  I mean, I'm squeeing.  I may even have squeed my pants a little when I heard the title, because I've gone on record saying that I was PRAYING they were setting up "Winter Soldier" in the first Cap movie, what with the dog-whistles of Bucky's age and the scene where he breifly uses the sheild before falling off the train to his apparent doom...

So are Comic movie fans, not comic fans?  I haz teh confuses.

Comments

[seawasp]

I have no idea who Bane IS. I know the Joker, the Riddler, the Penguin, Catwoman, indirectly I knew of Ras Al Ghul, etc., but not Bane. So no, I don't know what happens when Batman meets him. Unless he's the villain or one of them in The Dark Knight comic book from way back when, but I haven't read it in a long time and mostly I remember Mad Max rejects and the climactic battle against Superman.

[seawasp]

I'm whining about "Winter Soldier", myself. Let Bucky #)(*%# stay dead. If not, at least let him stay dead for a few movies, let Cap have some other opponents, before running into his old friend gone bad.

[lydamorehouse]

The thing about Bucky is that, pre-Brubaker's "Winter Soldier" I would have agred with you whole-heartedly. Bucky's death and Cap's guilt about it is central to his character throughout a lot of Marveldom. But, I really liked this reboot. Brubaker managed to make Bucky... sexy.

[seawasp]

Well, as you say, Bucky's death is central to the character for a long time. Let him have enough time onscreen for that to be SHOWN. He hasn't had much onscreen time for that to happen. I'd say at least a couple movies' worth. THEN do Winter Soldier, if you must.

[lydamorehouse]

Yeah, but you must have seen it coming, right? I mean, the actor they picked could have come straight out of Winter Soldier, just like I recognized Ultimate Nick Fury instantly.

I know what you're saying, though. I'm a little nervous that they seem to be going RIGHT THERE too. Of course, I'm always nervous with every new announcement. This is my fandom. Things could go so... badly, especially now that they're blockbuster movies.

[seawasp]

Well, no, not as such. I *guessed* they might be planning on that when they had Bucky on some kind of experimental table, etc., because that gives you a chance to have Something Strange about Bucky, but they didn't follow up on it exactly.

I never read Winter Soldier; I only heard about it I think from you, or maybe someone else around the same time when they mentioned that The Rule Had Been Broken. What little I've learned about Winter Soldier did not encourage me to read it.

You mentioned actually picking things back UP in Civil War; Civil War was long after I stopped, and what I learned about it (partly because for a while it looked like I was going to be doing videogame scripts for it) told me it was a total crock of crap, Marvel pissing all over its own creations about the way that DC is right now with its obscene "reboot". (Bitter? About the way they've debased Princess Koriand'r? Me? Never.)

So I suspect that while we enjoy some of the same things, there are also a lot of things we look for in comics that are very different.

[john jackson (from livejournal.com)]

I know who Joe Chill is. Hell, I know who Allen Scott and Jay Garrick are. Dude, I know who Jack Ryder was (he was the Creeper and he saved Batman's ass when Ras Al Ghul almost killed him). When my son went off to see the new Spiderman movie, I could explain to him who Gwen Stacy was (Spiderman's REAL true love before he had to settle for Mary Jane).

I have no idea who Bane is. I have no idea who the Winter Soldier is. This is because I stopped regularly reading comics a long time ago. But, if you don't consider me a comic fan, I shall have to ask you who Kent Nelson was and why, if he so chose, he could have kicked Superman's butt!

[lydamorehouse]

You're an old-timer, John. I respect that. I really do, but you NEED TO COME BACK TO COMICS. There's been a lot of awesome since you left, most of it really recent. I say to you thus: read Winter Soldier. It's collected in graphic novels now and you only need to buy two of them (maybe four). Anyway, try it... you might actually like it.

Also, the reboot of Thor isn't bad either, J. Michael Strazcynski (sp?) did a pretty good job with it.

Bane was long enough ago, I thought people knew. Perhaps I only know because my cousin Jonathan called me up in near-tears over this particular villian.

[seawasp]

In the more general answer to your question, the answer is Yes and No.

There are multiple audiences. The ones who know nothing about Winter Soldier won't be screaming about the spoilers. The ones who DO know will, or might not if they don't care about spoilers. The ones who don't know who Bane is will be the ones complaining about spoilers that tell them what's going to happen, while the people who do know who Bane is won't care about the spoilers, but may well whine vocally about any changes they see. And so on.

There's not one audience for these things, there's many. Given how "big" Avengers got to be, there's a large proportion of that audience that may never have READ a superhero comic book, and those who have, hadn't read one for twenty years. But there'll also be large detachments of devoted comic book fans in there, too. And different groups in there -- some who barely know anything about Spider-Man but followed Thor religiously, others who thought Cap was The Man but never paid attention to Iron Man, and some who read everything they could get their hands on.

[lydamorehouse]

Well, you've summed up a lot of my experience, actually. I hated Iron Man and Thor, and thought Cap was square until about five years ago when I rediscovered him in the midst of "Civil War." The movies revitalized and changed "meh"s into loves.

I know just enough to be dangerous, but I have to admit to being surprised at how much of an "insider" the Marvel movies made me feel. I guess I've gotten spoiled being pandered to this way.

[seawasp]

That reaction's interesting, because with respect to Iron Man and Thor, the movies worked for me precisely because they WERE the comics I read with only minor changes -- I liked them because I remembered what they were showing me. Oh, there were some minor mods and stupid stuff (avoiding Thor being an actual GOD, trying to handwave it being science rather than magic, changing the battle in which Tony Stark ends up with an impromptu heart surgury, etc.), but for the most part it was clearly someone who'd been reading comics during the era *I* was reading comics who was making these movies. Someone who'd bailed around the time of the "Inferno" plotline, whose Thor was Walt Simonson's Thor (even if he had to use some of the newer stuff, Asgard and all we saw there was Simonson, Kirby, etc.), whose Iron Man was the original Invincible Iron Man, whose Captain America was they guy who fought the Red Skull and had no moral conflicts of right and wrong.

[wordswoman.livejournal.com]

A vast portion of the potential moviegoing audience has not read the comics. So yes, it'd be a major spoiler to spill what happens when they meet.

[lydamorehouse]

See how I VERY CAREFULLY didn't? :-)

I was just realizing that I probably know Bane so well because of my nephew's reaction when he was reading Batman. I guess a lot of the old-timers don't know Bane. That's cool. The movie is going to be pretty dang shocking, then....

[wordswoman.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yes, I appreciate your restraint. :)

I don't think it's an age thing at all. I think it's comic readers vs. non-readers, which come in all ages. A gazillion people who never cracked open a comic in their lives go to comic-inspired movies.

[bookzombie.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I think there's quite a complicated set of things going on here.
Firstly, it may not necessarily depend on age, but when you started reading comics. I pretty much read no US comics (apart from Dark Knight Returns at university) until I picked up the Sandman books when I was in my late 20s (I'm mid-40s now.) I've caught up on some back story but there's so much of it for both DC and Marvel universes that I'm only peripherally aware of some of it.
I know vaguely what happens between Batman and Bane simply because I've seen it mentioned online by various people, not because I've read the relevant comics (yet). Similarly, I know vaguely about the Winter Soldier because I read the Civil War books - where the Winter Soldier is mentioned in passing - and the Death of Captain America stuff.
There is a huge amount of backstory, even in relatively recent years, in comics. So if you come in at a certain point, how much of the older stuff can you know?

I sort of think of it as rather like how people consume Doctor Who these days. Some people have come in and fallen in love with New Who (i.e. since the 2005 revival) Some of those have gone back and watched Old Who (as is only right and proper!) others will only know what happened pre-New Who by what's mentioned in passing in the new series and what people mention in conversation or online.
And there's a lot less of that than there is old comics!

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