Non-Christian Fan Question (Good Omens: TV)

[lydamorehouse]

 I should preface this question I have for my Christian friends by explaining, for those who don't know me, that I grew-up non-Christian, but Roman Catholic adjacent.  

Both of my parents came from Catholic families, but left the church before I was born. I was raised in a secular humanist Unitarian Universalist fellowship, which was its own weirdness, but is only tangentially related to my question. The thing to know is that my extended family remained Roman Catholic. I also spent 4, 5, and 6th grades in Catholic school. Then, I got my undergraduate degree at a Lutheran college (now university,) where I was required to have several religion credits, including one Bible Study course (which I passed, with a B.) 

So, it's not that I'm, like, "Christianity? What even is?"

Also, if you ONLY know me through DW and my previous stint at LJ, the other thing to know is that I wrote a five book trilogy about angels and demons of all sorts (by which I mean, I wrote not only about Christian angels, but also Muslim and Jewish ones.) I did a f*ck ton of research in these areas because 1) it fascinates me, and 2) I have literally no dog in the fight--I'm now a pagan, but I still very much hold to the UU tenant of "universal salvation," which at it's core means that there is truth of some kind in all religious doctrines and all y'all are already "saved" no need for any intermediary, like a personal relationship with a particular "correct" deity.

And that's the thing that I suspect is critical to my question. I have no personal, emotional attachment to any elements of Christianity. 

With that set-up, now on to the actual question I have for you, my Christian friends on Dreamwidth (or anyone who wants to weigh in, honestly)....

So, there I was last night, sitting at a new friend's house watching Good Omens with the hostess and another friend of hers. We've been watching two episodes at a time and I'm not very regular, so I think last night was episodes 3 and 4. Three, I think, starts with a super-long montage of Crowley and Aziraphale meeting-up at various historical/Biblical moments throughout time. 

When we hit the crucification, my friends almost audibly gasp and say: "I can't believe they went there."

Okay. I get that this is "the" moment of Christianity (though one could argue that the resurrection is a bit more critical.)

BUT.

These two people are long time nerds. I have no idea how they responded to THE MUSICAL NUMBER in "Life of Brian," but I suspect, like nearly every nerd I have ever known, these two could probably sing the words to "Always Look on the Bright Side of Life!" and would do so, with relish.

The crucification, so far, as this non-Christian can tell, is live-action depicted all over the place, including in another musical "Jesus Christ, Superstar." 

Pardon the pun, but I did not think that the crucification was all that sacrosanct. 

During the break, I asked my friends what the big a$$ deal was, but I think they were much more surprised to discover I wasn't Christian and so we kind of talked around it or, if they gave me an answer, it was vague and unsatisfactory. Something like, "You just don't," which seems patently UNTRUE.

I have been thinking about this A LOT and my only current conclusion is that the objection wasn't to the crucification itself, but to its inclusion in a montage clearly designed to show the viewer that these two angels are very, very much in LOVE. I will take no argument on this point. The screenplay adaptor/co-writer (Neil Himself) seems to agree with me and I don't need his twitter confirmation, since someone, presumably Mr. Gaiman, wrote in a gay man on the street comforting Aziraphile when Crowley storms off after asking him to run away with him and says, LITERALLY, "Oh, honey, I've been there. You're better off without him." And Aziraphile nods sadly instead of, you know, no homo-ing the fuck out of that and saying (like he often does when other angels confront him about this forbidden relationship) "We're not friends!" (I should have counted how many times Aziraphile says that in the episode. I would guess three, as it seems a very clear nod to Peter's denial of Christ. They are friends, after all, very much more than, though clearly never consummated.)

So, is it that the presence of gay angels sully the crucification?

Or is there something, my Christian friends, that I am MISSING about the way that scene was portrayed in Good Omens (as opposed to, say, "Life of Brian.")

Was it because the Jesus in Good Omens was clearly suffering while they, two emissary from a "higher authority," watched without doing anything to mitigate that suffering or even seemed to have much sympathy (never mind that earlier, there was a lovely and VERY RADICAL discussion about WTF with the flood, God, why would you kill all these people because you're feeling pissy? EXCELLENT question and one many non-Christians have wondered!)? Was it the fact that the stigma were clearly being placed in the CORRECT place? So, that added some kind of "historical" accuracy that made the humor hard to deal with, what?  I mean, was it the implication that the God of the Old Testament was not, in point of fact, any kinder than the God of the New? That does, by the way, seem to be a theme, given that God's army clearly WANT the end of the world and war, so you wouldn't think JUST that scene would be gasp-worthy if you were going to be offended by how God is being portrayed in this series. 

Thoughts?

Comments

[offcntr]

I think it may have been less about their personal reaction than about expectations of the s***storm of reaction including the crucifixion would elicit from conservative fundamentalists.

Given how the fundies had already demanded that Netflix cancel the series (snerk!) over a female voice of God and a black Adam and Eve, I think that ark's already sailed.

[lydamorehouse]

Oh, so you think that my friends were worried about how conservative fundamentalists would react to that scene? Mmmm, maybe? I mean, I think they're both smart enough to realize that a fundie would have probably bailed in the opening credits when, as you say, it's clear God is being voiced by a woman. So, I don't know. That could be it, though.

I will say I thought long and hard about including Jesus in my own novels about angels. There was, in one draft of Apocalypse Array, a moment when someone asked Morningstar/Satan about Jesus and he says, "Who?" the other person says "Isa? Yeshu'a? You know the guy that died on the cross in Golgotha?" and Morningstar is like, "You're going to have to be more specific, the Romans really liked crucifying people." Because, apparently, historically, in that particuar region, they really did.

I think I pulled it (though it might still be there, like Good Omens, I figured if a person got this far in the series they were already not the sort of person who would suddenly be shocked at my blasphemy,) because I was thinking "best just to leave Jesus out of this entirely."

[pegkerr]

I haven’t seen Good Omens, which makes this question difficult to answer.

Lately, when hearing anything wrt “how Christians react,” I always want to clarify whether we’re talking “Christians” or “fundamentalist Christians.” Increasingly, American culture assumes that the latter IS the former. I don’t. (Although I don’t try to claim, as some progressive Christians do, that fundies “aren’t really Christians.” That’s a whole ‘nuther and really ugly argument.)

It seems to me that yes, fundies have violently objected to every cultural depiction of the crucifixion (that isn’t traditional Western art in a museum somewhere). (Possible exception: Passion of the Christ by Mel Gibson? Which I refused to see given that reviews I saw seemed to indicate that it was a sort of glorification of masochistic violence? Discuss)

I dunno. I can’t think of another depiction of Christ crucified say in the movies that didn’t make someone lose their sh*t somewhere.

(I do get so weary of people claiming to represent me claiming things I don’t believe.)

[lydamorehouse]

I think you'd be surprised to know who I was hanging out with, Peg. (I will tell you, if you come to the coffee shop on Friday. You know both of them.) That being said, I'm pretty sure neither of them are fundamentalist, which is why I was surprised by this reaction, too.

And, I get your frustration. Christians get dumped on a lot in this country, despite being in the majority.

But, my question was not born out of malice. There are just things I am culturally unaware of on account have been raised slightly outside of the mainstream.

[xochiquetzl]

Disclaimer:

My mother was raised Pentacostal and went to Southern Baptist churches later in her life. My father was a rampaging atheist who bit his tongue in two the entire time my mother raised my sister and I Methodist, which didn't take because we hated her choice of church (not the Methodists, the vast majority of whom are perfectly nice and good people, but she took us to a "rich" church with a good choir and a whole bunch of snooty rich people who weren't interested in talking to "the poor people," aka us, and where the minister was accused of trying to murder his wife). (Maybe it also didn't take because we noticed that Dad never went to church? After they divorced he stopped biting his tongue and offered a lot of hot takes on the topic of religion.) I was a Unitarian (CUUPS!) for a while, read a bunch on Christianity for a while, then converted to Judaism.

In other words, maybe I don't count, either.

Disclaimer aside: My guess would be that they gasped because "Good Omens" used the crucifixion in what's practically a throwaway joke in a comedy, instead of treating it with the solemnity or importance that it deserves.

[lydamorehouse]

Yeah, also a good point--the throwaway-ness of it.

[applenym]

I originally saw this post go by and thought, hmmm, yes, there was something that struck me about that scene...what was it? And my subconscious must have been working on it, because it just presented me with a possible answer.

I can only speak to the tradition I was raised in: mainstream Protestant, specifically Wisconsin Synod Lutheran. In that tradition, Jesus Christ is CENTRAL to the faith—the Alpha and Omega—the son of God, yes, but also God in his own right. (Cue long discussion of the Trinity and what it means about the personhood of God.) I think many people in the church I grew up in were afraid of God the Father, so they prayed mainly to Jesus.

And in that scene in Good Omens, Jesus is a blip in history. He's not central or divine at all. Just a man who was gruesomely murdered by the state. So maybe that's what your friends were reacting to? With Jesus-as-God absent from its universe, Good Omens is left with just the Old Testament vengeful God. Or, in God's absence, with God's vengeful angels. No mercy—no redemption. Just punishment.

You could even argue that Crowley/Aziraphale are taking the place of Jesus in the narrative, by ultimately choosing love for the Earth and mercy for its inhabitants rather than a world-ending Apocalypse, even with the threat of retribution and obliteration facing them.

In any case, I loved Good Omens, and am reading ALL the fanfic.

[lydamorehouse]

This is a really good insight. Thank you very much! THIS makes sense to me.

Interestingly, I just finished watching Good Omens last night with those same friends... and you're absolutely right about the message vs. a very Old Testament-y God.